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x-return-mx=pass smtp.domain=gmail.com policy.is_org=yes (MX Records found: alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com); x-tls=pass smtp.version=TLSv1.2 smtp.cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 smtp.bits=256/256; x-vs=clean score=0 state=0 Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'lucio.dere@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=tb-mx1.topicbox.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="lucio.dere@gmail.com"; helo=mail-lj1-f177.google.com; client-ip=209.85.208.177 From: Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 06:06:13 +0200 Subject: Re: [9fans] p9f mention of 9front To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Topicbox-Policy-Reasoning: allow: sender is a member Topicbox-Message-UUID: 8881bee2-d4a1-11eb-a3aa-a45639f3c2e6 Archived-At: <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T523d6e906a17a7cc-Me1fe9703569c5c6466229207> Reply-To: 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> Topicbox-Delivery-ID: 2:9fans:437d30aa-c441-11e9-8a57-d036212d11b0:9e00e022-a139-11eb-b835-09bb272d11b0:Me1fe9703569c5c6466229207:1:Z3K3oNe9puN5SluhyP8Tu_BoMLzSTdyZL6yCUC8SKoQ Eish! I really can't resist, can I? On 6/24/21, Romano <unobe@cpan.org> wrote: > [...] But I'm a nobody, so I'm probably not going to persuade > anyone. > Let me try and keep this short, but it won't be easy. Firstly, this is not intended as an offence, particularly against Romano, it is merely an alert against our poorly understood "human nature". The sentiment implied in the sentence above is a bare-faced lie. Romano, you need not defend it, I utter lies like this daily, multiple times, and I spend my time mostly in solitude :-). Thing is, we try hard to be tactful or diplomatic and fail to be convincing because we don't actually know how to respond to similar falsehoods directed at us. My own problem is that I have no scientific foundations for what follows, only personal experience in a context where multiple natural "languages" flow freely and misunderstandings are more the norm than the exception. Here, we continue to pay a high price for not having resolved this madness at birth. 9front got off on a bad footing, in my recollection more a generational clash than anything caused by one or more technical issue. Repairing the burnt bridges requires undoing all the antagonism that has been accumulated since, plus more than just a smidgen of technical savvy. But the emotional need for approval did lead to acrimony and acrimony led to the eventual 9 fork and today one can still run 2Ed applications on 9legacy (bar occasional mishaps - not that I can think of any), but not 9front applications without modification. That, is a very clear ring-fence. And it makes me quite sad, but realistically, it would take quite a lot of tolerance, effort and time to merge the two streams and something would undoubtably be lost in the process of compromising. Not least, there would be ego damage (I have my own skeletons I would not want to release from the cupboard next to the one implied above). The point of the above is simple: only a neutral party can put Plan/9/Front together again and there are more pressing issues for the average participant to address that stand firmly in the way. Harping on the politics is the wrong thing to do, eventually survival of the fittest is going to dictate the path that will be taken. And the fittest, accidentally or intentionally, in the current ecosystem, in my opinion is plan9port, at least until Torvalds stops dictating the path Linux takes: our culture can't resist a strong personality (that's the "cult" in "culture"), but also cannot survive without continuity, surprise, surprise. The democracy that may favour intellect over emotion needs to be an artifact able to adjust to changing contexts, consciously. The Plan 9 Foundation may or may not have that in its genome. Miller is a reminder that a port to a different architecture is the product of both individual genius (and, yes, Cinap does that, also, I don't mean to be disrespectful) and sound foundations. What Plan 9 needs is a Nemo to redo his analysis of 3Ed and offer a more modern version focused on Plan 9 as the glue between the MS-Windows/Apple user interface (based on a perceived and certainly not genuine security) and the scrappy Turing machines Intel and co-conspirators are foisting on us. And to be ready for the next generation of hardware that may prevent this generation producing an Atlantis-sized civilisation collapse. Of course, that's not to suggest this must be Nemo's retirement package, it means that the right calibre of humans must undertake to perform such an analysis to its completion. Lucio. PS: I would have liked to bring Minix-3 into the rant above, but I have yet to explore to my satisfaction what it really represents. Suffice it to say that it may be able to run p9p and that is rather an interesting curved ball. The other oddity is the smart mobile computer we like to call a "phone". Why is there no Plan 9 flavour running on at least some flavour of it? ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T523d6e906a17a7cc-Me1fe9703569c5c6466229207 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription